Author Topic: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers  (Read 10405 times)

Offline The Law

  • Khalan Weaponry
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
  • Khalan Weaponry
    • Khalan Weaponry, LLC
Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« on: January 23, 2008, 12:05:28 PM »
As some of you know, we have been unable to launch our MRP .45 Firearm due to the fact we have been unable to secure a source for barrels and the other parts required for the upper conversion.  I recently contacted Olympic Arms's sales director in the hopes to acquire the parts needed for the upper assembly.  Instead I got a refusal and a few insults.  So I'm going to posted some of the dialog from the attempted negotiation.  This is only a partial dialog from my side since their Sales Directed explicitly stated that I was not to disclose any information or content that he sent me.  That is his right by law.  Regardless you can get a pretty good idea of what he said through my replies. 

1st Contact
Quote
We're looking for someone who can provide AR15 barrels made for .45 ACP.
We're needing around 10 barrels now... more or less depending upon the
price.

Mitchell Jones
Khalan Weaponry, LLC

Reply to his response and questions.
Quote
We're needing them pretty much finished, but we don't need a front sight.
If possible, I'd like to have M16x1 threads to go with suppressors used for
HK .45's.

We'll also be needing the .45 bolt assembly and the ejector spring assembly
that you offer.

Mitchell D. Jones
Khalan Weaponry, LLC

The next reply.
Quote
There are several things to consider.  There is going to be a competitive
market regardless if we get the barrels, uppers, and other parts from Oly or
not.  We've been given the contract to make to produce and sell the AR45
receivers created by CNC Guns and we need complete uppers for them.

As for the parts I requested, when I referred to the bolt assembly I also
was implying the bolt carrier as well.  The only parts that we do not need
is the actual upper receiver and a front sight since we already produce
both.

So the bottom line and reason is like this.  A customer decides that they
want a .45 upper receiver and they pick us instead of Oly, but since we get
the parts from you Olympic still makes money off that sell.  If we don't get
the parts from you and we are forced to create an alternative then in that
same situation you make nothing.

We'd prefer not to produce all the parts required for a .45 upper,
especially when the parts are already on the market.  However, if we have no
other choice then we are fully prepared to do so.  We're not expecting and
super discount on the parts and if the reason holding you back is the upper
receiver, then we'll get from you as well.  We'll even advertise our
firearms as using Oly uppers.  All we want is to be able to offer a complete
firearm regardless of who's upper is on it.

Mitchell D. Jones
Khalan Weaponry, LLC.

He wasn't to pleased by this and this is where the insults came in.
Quote
Mr. [        ]

If you want to accuse me of being ignorant by not conforming to the correct firearm terminology and lack of economic understanding, that is fine.

Personally, Im not as concerned about making as much money as possible from the upper receivers.  I simply want to accomplish one thing Be capable of selling a complete firearm to customers that prefer not to order from multiple vendors.  The only discount I was hoping for was enough to cover shipping and the cost of time to install the upper to the lower so that we are not required to increase the price above normal retail costs.

That may sound economically unsound for not wanting to clear any profit from the sale of the upper receiver, but I suppose that is the difference between passion and greed.  I started this company because Ive had a fascination with firearms since I can remember.  It was only a plus that my passion became profitable.  I simply want to make some cool guns.

As for the patents: 5,740,626 / 5,520,019 / 5,499,569 / 5,448,940 / 5,351,598 will not be infringed upon during our development.

In conclusion, it is apparent that you have made up your mind.  I was in error to attempt to establish a solution that would beneficial to both of us.  Regardless, I do thank you for taking the time to discuss this matter and best of luck with the new [SOMETHING] design. 

A need or problem encourages creative efforts to meet the need or solve the problem. - Plato

Best Regards,
Mitchell D. Jones
Khalan Weaponry, LLC.


So that is that unless they have a change of heart.  I can understand not wanting to help your competition, but if I was faced with similar situation... I would prefer to make something instead of nothing. 



Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.

Offline danedgington

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2008, 01:45:19 PM »
I have several Oly uppers, but have had some interesting phone conversations with them.  When I first tried to order the 45 Upper (or was it a 9mm..anyway the story is the same), they said they had complete uppers, butt they could not sell it b/c they had no magazines available and they would not sell them without being tested with a magazine.  I told them I didn't need the magazine.  They then told me that was the way the are priced and they don't off a discount for not having a magazine.  I stated I would take it at reg. price, with no magazine, and understanding it was untested.  They still stated no.

Lucky for me, I found some sole in Washington State who was able to take my order of what I wanted (length wise and upper) and get it delivered to me within 10 days.  From the conversation with him, I think I know where he works......
And he sold it for a modest price....

Dan

Offline cornholio1

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 39
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2008, 11:08:48 PM »
Give ER Shaw barrels a call.  They may make some custom for you.  Maybe he had a bad day.  I wouldn't trust my life to an Olympic rifle anyways
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 11:52:37 PM by cornholio1 »

Offline The Law

  • Khalan Weaponry
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
  • Khalan Weaponry
    • Khalan Weaponry, LLC
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2008, 08:54:26 AM »
That isn't the only problem.  I can get barrels from several places now, but we still need the .45 bolt and all that jazz which happens to be patented.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.

Offline goober

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1635
    • goober on heatware
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2008, 09:22:02 AM »
That isn't the only problem.  I can get barrels from several places now, but we still need the .45 bolt and all that jazz which happens to be patented.
that Oly guy sounds like a d*ck.
care to share your barrel sources w/ the rest of us?
heatware username: goober

Offline Prototype Services

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 456
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2008, 11:36:39 AM »
Mitch,
Start hounding Kurt at KKF. I talked to him a while back about doing gas and  piston driven 45 uppers.

This would bypass Oly's patent altogether.

A piston upper would run cleaner and be easier on the brass. No need for drilling an upper and using that fragile ejector spring.
If he knew more than "just a few guys" wanted to buy parts/uppers, he might get on it faster.

Dave

Offline jwh02017

  • CNC Gunsmithing
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1027
    • CNC Gunsmithing
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2008, 12:58:59 PM »
I've always dealt with Tom at Oly Arms and I've never had any problems like this.  I told him who I was and that I had designed a new AR15 lower that would work with their uppers and he acted like he didn't have any problems with it.  Tom said the same thing about the shortage of mags, I told him I didn't need the mag and he was like ok, and he also knock some off the price... I want to say it was like $35 or something.  Maybe they have changed their policy by now... who knows.

Justin

Offline goober

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1635
    • goober on heatware
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2008, 02:22:34 PM »
Mitch,
Start hounding Kurt at KKF. I talked to him a while back about doing gas and  piston driven 45 uppers.

This would bypass Oly's patent altogether.

A piston upper would run cleaner and be easier on the brass. No need for drilling an upper and using that fragile ejector spring.
If he knew more than "just a few guys" wanted to buy parts/uppers, he might get on it faster.

Dave

yeah, i hit kurt up a week or two ago, he said he's waiting on someone to prep or finish some barrels for him, and won't be able to fill any oredrs until then... but the more voices he hears, the louder he'll hear them...
heatware username: goober

Offline The Law

  • Khalan Weaponry
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
  • Khalan Weaponry
    • Khalan Weaponry, LLC
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2008, 03:04:05 PM »
It was a barrel manufacturer.  We had talked about a lot of 50 barrels though.  I don't really want that much on hand for the moment even though the demand is there for it.  I've just got to much spread out right now trying to stock parts for the KR-15, KR-01, and lower parts for AR45's.

The only way he would sell me parts of I bought the entire firearm from them.  You'd figure he'd be happy that we're around since there are problem 60 uppers or more sold because of Justin's design.  That's a lot of sales that might not have happened if the AR45 wasn't around. 

Secondly that he attacked me for not using correct terminology was a shock.  If anyone has seen some flame war type threads on different forums there is also that guy who can't really debate and defend their opinion so all they does is pick out spelling errors and what not.

You guys can goto this link http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html and check the patents they have.  You can use the patent numbers I listed above or search Olympic as assignee name and WA under state. 
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.

Offline Prototype Services

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 456
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2008, 06:01:56 PM »
Tell Kurt to email me, I have about 5-6 partially finished Shaw barrel blanks from when Rhineland quit making FAL, Mauser, and Enfield kits. I would be glad to trade some blanks towards work if he needs barrels. They will finish at about 15" though, so you will need a FH or something.
Tell him the carburetor guy sent you.

Dave

Offline palmtreee

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2008, 10:15:36 PM »
A piston upper is the only thing missing from the perfect AR45!  Where can I get one.


Offline goober

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1635
    • goober on heatware
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2008, 10:30:33 PM »
A piston upper is the only thing missing from the perfect AR45!  Where can I get one.



we should all work on kurt  ;D
heatware username: goober

Offline The Law

  • Khalan Weaponry
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
  • Khalan Weaponry
    • Khalan Weaponry, LLC
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2008, 10:47:46 AM »
I agree.  I've already emailed him.  So if we all do it, maybe we will make some progress.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.

Offline Tango Chaser

  • Tango Chaser Tactical LLC
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 618
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2008, 10:37:55 PM »
Here is the real info on Oly's patents. Patens are good for 20 years. Then they are public domain.

The first one given is for their Simunition uppers was filed in 1992 and expires in 2012.

The next patent given is for their pistol caliber rifles was filed in 1992 and expires in 2012.

The next patent is a continuation of the one above and expires in 2016.

The next is for their OA93-98 seireis of guns and expires in 2015.

The last patent number Oly quoted is apparently for a gas piston set up for pistol caliber gun. Funny how they don't sell one. It expires in 2015.

All this is why I am doing R&D on a .45 upper that does not use any Oly specific parts or designs.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 08:47:14 PM by Tango Chaser »

Offline 45zring

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2008, 01:37:02 PM »
Here is the real info on Oly's patents. Patens are good for 20 years. Then they are public domain.

The first one given is for their Simunition uppers was filed in 1992 and expires in 2012.

The next patent given is for their pistol caliber rifles was filed in 1992 and expires in 2012.
The next patent is a continuation of the one above and expires in 2016.

The next is for their OA93-98 seireis of guns and expires in 2015.

The last patent number Oly quoted is apparently for a gas piston set up for pistol caliber gun. Funny how they don't sell one. It expires in 2015.

All this is why I am doing R&D on a .45 upper that does not use any Oly specific parts or designs.



I just got around to reading through these old posts and this was interesting.  Does this mean that in 2012 we could see more manufacturers building pistol caliber uppers?  And of presumably higher quality?  Their system is simple and works pretty well but the execution... :-\
Spes non consilium est!

Offline Tango Chaser

  • Tango Chaser Tactical LLC
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 618
Re: Olympic Arms Partial Dialog - .45 Uppers
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2008, 05:05:44 PM »
Patents are renewable as far as I can tell as Oly renewed one already. It is possible they may submit to renew their pistol caliber patent in 2012.