Author Topic: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --  (Read 13514 times)

Offline hubel585

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585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« on: October 19, 2013, 12:33:32 AM »
585 HE ---Tested  Super Strong --

If you've followed our work in the 12ga FH thread you've seen
our  585 HE cartridge and its development. We have barrels
of cases and more coming.

We have put it in all kinds of guns, and tested it with 650gr
bullet over 3000 fps as heavy load to test the brass, and also
for lighter game like deer and hogs and target fun we found
that some of  440gr- 540gr  58cal Minie bullets work great

First picture shows it next to 505 Gibbs, it has same overall
loaded length as a Gibbs. Holds up to 190gr ball powder
under bullets...

Next pic is a barrel of cases..

 Third  representative of types of guns we have it in.Ed

.

.

.


AND We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...And moderate
loads still much faster than 577NE. And can be had without costing a
years pay. Most local users(only 1 in  10000 hunters go Africa) can
shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 95 cents each,
once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer,  etc... Cases
last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want.
Folks can get 100 cases, dies,  barrel to put in something, 750 bucks.

Asked about #1, And it is perfect case for the Ruger #1.
The few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve
metal behind the action shoulders that breach block
rests against because of rim. Ours don't have to and the #1s
extractors I've seen work better with belted than big rimmed.
Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.Ed


 

Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2013, 12:46:24 AM »
Case doesn't need  special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine.
It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder.
Powder need not be like charcoal, IE, really slow powder, as necked
 needs. So it has effiencies of 37-39%, where necked cases are
about 29%. Here is one done in a Savage..



The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the
weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate
loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall
out after firing. Here are couple a nice singles with 585HE  in them.





Cases are made super strong, in the same factory run as the super
high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of
belt as Cheytac/Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws, just uses
a different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made
and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners.
These are not balloon head junk cases.



We and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and we have some.
Reamer specs  all set and the chambers made with them, the cases
extract at the highest pressures.
Here is pic of one we set with 585HE in a Greener GP.Ed






Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2013, 09:04:18 AM »
WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being
over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a
sporting cartridge exemption few years ago.

First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is
4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat
them and put their own stamp on..

Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special
holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new
shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago.

Third is one with AP bore rider bullet in with others
behind. Maybe make a great long range target cartridge.
Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that.

   

   



Here is picture of 585HE with 700gr HP CEB bullet and 750 gr
wide meplat CEB bullet..Ed


Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2013, 12:14:40 AM »
In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati
cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic,
long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted.

We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch
showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally
a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the
same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made
years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns
done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick
corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this
process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work.



Now these cases have a diameter that works with regular bolt guns, 
without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex.
Here is picture of a case held in a Ruger bolt, for example..



And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an
oversize, soft case. Thicksided  cases relative to size of the case are much
harder to harden the heads and the lower body back up  to proper strength.
because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing
and heading operations in the manufacturing process.
Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure
Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with
no extraction problems.



Here is picture of a O/U I had top barrel sleeved with smooth tube, and use
the 585HE in it with lightweight, hollowbase Minie bullets. Shoots about as
accurate as foster slugs in a 12ga. Bottom barrel is 3.5" 12ga smooth.








Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2013, 01:10:30 AM »
Some more info- For guys in other countries you can get cases
from Bertram in Australia. I can send die sets. There is a guy
in AUS that has a reamer I sent him.

We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the
Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585".
Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found
that 24ga wads  work perfect in the case, like in this picture.



WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test  hollowbase Minies.
Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot.
Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in.



We even got one in good ole NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked
into it and gun weighted, with thick pad. Guy in TX got one also
and there is video on ytube-- URL below--  Ed





www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc 




Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2013, 01:21:41 AM »
We have a guy who is working toward getting the 585HE cases into
Canada, for guys there to be able to get them from him..

Our case works for black powder type of loads using .585" Minie 
Bullets also. Here is picture sectioned case with 4 Pyrodex 54 cal
pellets stacked behind a 440 gr Minie  Bullet.Goes over 2500.
Can be loaded with 3 pellets and 24ga cushion wad.



Here is an innovation in a 585HE Falling Block we did. It's in a
one piece thumbhole rifle stock. Nice to handle and shoots heavy
loads a comfortable as a weighted bolt action gun. FBW brand.



Here is a bunch of barrels we have, the wrapped ones are slow
twist just for guys doing 585HE  guns to use Minie bullets for
deer, hogs, target, and plain ole fun Using black or smokeless.



Here is picture of one being done by a guy on a big Enfield with a
nice figured Walnut stock. It is weighted and has a thick pad.
Being done African style with thick barrel and integral front sight.
You can see a bunch cases in background shelf.--Ed







Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2013, 03:52:28 PM »
Hooray the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here,  more 
will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14
that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks, 
1 to 20 twist.  And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly
Minie bullet guns, and  bunch smoothbore blanks...Pics soon.

Here are couple more pictures of the gun guy is doing with nice stock.





Here is picture, 585 FBW falling block with  Hogue Knoxx Compstock.
Helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed




Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2014, 01:33:34 AM »

Here is picture of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
We got most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth...In back some
of the cases and die sets.



Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip..Have Mcgowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle.



Here is a visual comparison of why I really like Enfields and
Rugers for big bore work. An Enfield on the left.... Lugs
built much stronger, simpler to put barrels in actions,
without the wall in the middle of front reciever. Easier
to shape breaches to feed big cases, so they don't hang up.
Left lug longer and forward, simpler to do bolt faces to hold
bigger cases...Ed


Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2014, 08:02:38 AM »
Here is picture of 585HE in a Montana Rifle Co. PH action.
The double stack mag for the 505 Gibbs they make works ok.
The Enfield in the Hogue stock above is done and gone.



We also had guy show us how the case can work for a
high energy subsonic, real high energy for subsonic
1600 gr at 1050 fps. 400 ft lbs. The 585HE Whisper
 Anyone   with some way overbore 14.9 mm necked
cases on huge actions, can make case inserts for
using our case to fire subsonic  And still   fire 650gr or 750 gr
 at high speeds. Can't get  14.9 Russian cases, use ours in
same gun  with inserts.




Break action I like, we did on a CBC by mono-blocking a 585
barrel, set up especially for  Minie bullets of 440 to 540 gr.





Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2014, 07:27:54 PM »
You can see from above posts I like Enfields and here is picture
of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack magazine.
We open bottom of action for length and use a lip type magazine
insert to feed cases single stack. And lips are springy so we
can load from the top.



Here is the second gun I did years ago in the 585HE, an old style
Ruger 77. And at that time I used the cases I made myself and
they work great in the gun, high pressure loads, and extracted
easy like the new ones from Bertram.



Here is some math to show why I really like really big bores.
There is term called Average Barrel Pressure, which is the average of
all the pressures in a barrel, from the start where you have highest,
called peak pressure. to the lowest at the muzzle when bullet exits.
For high powered rifles average barrel pressure  run 15-18000 psi.
 
There is a formula that can be used to get Average barrel pressure
fairly close if you know the muzzle energy.

We multiply ME times 12 and divide by  barrel cross section x length.
We simplified it to get the 12 figure, It is inverse of the bore dia x 5
For the 585 it comes out about 10

Example a 458Win usually loaded to 5000 ft lbs, say in a 24" bbl.

ABP  = ( 5000 ft lbs  x 12)  divided by  (.17 sg in x 24")  =  15,000 psi

Now you see there isn't a lot of room for big  gains, as it would take
peak pressures damaging to brass and gun, to get say 50% increase.

Now example of  585HE in the 26" bbl we like, say a 7,000 ft lb load,
a real moderate load in this case. Could use 10 in place of 12,
but kept it all simple

ABP  =  (7000 ft lb x 12)  divided by (.27 sg in x 26")  =  12000 psi

The bigger bore allows for a much larger potential,
a 50% gain is easy to do.Ed



Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2014, 11:06:28 AM »
Here is a few of the variety of bullets we found or know about
 to use in 585HE, about a third of them, from 440gr, to 750gr,
to 1200gr, to 1600gr.



Here  is picture of what 200gr powder, in a case that had
the powder settled, looks like.



We now have more 585 new straight blanks giving a total of 9
basic blanks, with long ones for guys setting up target guns.
And a bunch more of the profiled barrels are being made now
to go with new ones we got left. One which  went on this BBK
pictured, 3 on Enfields, one on FBW, one Ruger, 2 in PHs.
Guys have used 5 of  the new slow twist barrels. Ed


Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2014, 12:05:29 AM »
There is a guy and his smith in AUS that has a reamer for the 585HE.
And maybe another firm there that can get a bunch reasonably priced
barrels imported in from the US. Our Mcgowen barrels are high quality,
hand lapped, and only half of what getting them in from other places cost.
Here is part of stuff that the guys have to work with..



Here is picture of the Mossy 390 action, after I'd set up  for the 585HE.
Just to see how good the action is, and I have since set barrel back
and made it into a 24ga FH. Just makes an easy to work with test gun.
 Being both use same size bore, and  in  24ga with 3" chamber I can use
577 brass for 24ga cases, using same Minie and jacketed  as 585HE.
58CAL IN ALL FORMS is where it is at, so to speak......Ed



PS-We have longer barrels now for target work including real heavy ones
of  1  5/8  inches, that  some guys are working on getting bigger actions
set up to use them in. .

Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2014, 11:47:22 PM »
Here is a picture of the first 585HE to be done and firing,
in Australia, owned by the poster, tankhunter on AR forums.
Fellows there can get cases from Bertram. I can send
dies and reamers.And can get dies from CH4D.
There soon will be 3 reamers there.

And now  a company  starting to make 585 barrels there.
I have about 17 here, so no waiting here.

Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland...
allanswan at uplink.net.au. 



WE have cases with plain heads if guys need some for
wlldcatting, necking down, and they can put on their
 own headstamp.Ed



Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2014, 10:36:51 PM »
We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue
stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
don't break under heavy loads. Prices are nice and they have
aluminum pillars and/or aluminum bedding blocks.
And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
 too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute.
We now using rubber coated mouse balls that we have bunch of.
They are steel with rubber coating, and the right weight.
They add just the right weight and and wedge in good.
And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
a piece of dense foam under butt pad.



 We get asked about how much speed potential we have.  And
we start by mentioning  cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
with the bullets loaded out longer. And we have those  heavy
powder loads with  650 gr jacketed bullets, in the Enfield
pictured I use as one of my test guns.



And more fun shooting, using a pistol grip on one of the
585HE falling block test guns. Real heavy loads try to spin us
around like a weathervane.. Ed





Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2014, 10:50:14 PM »
A related case to our 585 is the 24ga FH that has 3" chamber and
brass cases reworked  577NE cases, that we reduce the rim down
to .720"...  the 24ga size rim...We make minimum chamber so that  24ga
plastic cases, 2.5" long just fit. And min chamber cuts down on a lot
of brass case expansion, which the wears cases out.

The barrels are same bore barrels as our 585 and the hollowbase minie
bullets work great in it, the ones that are .585",  440gr to 540gr.
Makes hairy 24ga gun for deer, etc. Be useful in shotgun only areas.
Guys on GB sells the .585"  minies. And the brass  cases, we don't have
to wait for them to be made.



Here is what 585HE barrel and its monoblock look like before
screwing the barrel in.This one was 585HE, but process same if
monoblocking in 24ga FH...Ed




Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2014, 11:41:28 PM »
Here is picture of 585HE with 24ga FH ...585 the  longer one.
Both use same bullets/slugs, same caliber rifled barrels.
Different easy usages,  24ga FH  is an easy setup in break
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.



Picture of  non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
someone  pulled out,  and they wouldn't stay in tight after pulled.
Supposed to be for 20ga, But this sabot was a real loose fit
in 20ga, though made for 20ga, so I shrunk diameter of  bottom rib,
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE brass cases.  A  press
 in tight fit gives good resistance for good ignition. real tight fit.



Here is a 24ga/585 discarding sabot that holds .452"   45cal pistol
 bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal Muzzle loaders..
With  250 gr bullet in 585HE, hopped up load will go about mach 4.



For ease of getting actions in stocks, I like composites.They are
strong. come colors, many can be painted with tough finish paints.
Usually  need weight added for big bore use. But not too miuch..
An easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts,  use rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect, without being 
too heavy if using that much lead. And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in, with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed



Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2014, 10:08:06 PM »
First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed




I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise,  figuring out an
extractor is a  problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed



Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2014, 01:22:03 AM »
Here is picture of 100 cases  loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
or wide hollowpoint. .



Here is pic of a Enfield with a jeweled and polished bolt, going
to be 585HE. In the back,  Bolt jeweling and polishing  done by the
great craftsmen, Bob Snapp, years ago.



Picture comparing unfired and fired cases showing our tough cases
One on the left fired with 650gr at 2400 and base above belt
didn't hardly expand, Sized the top and reloaded/shot again.
And AHC will make guns now with our 585HE for any wanting
super top quality guns.They have some cases to give to guys
as a sample to show  guys the case. Ed



Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2014, 07:44:22 PM »
Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case,  that many big game hunters like, usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati  with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,
 to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of  24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder,  cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
24ga FH, a  slight regression to earlier times, by  taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions,  and finding
reasonable price  rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
about a third the cost of  600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

Info about the power in  types of guns  normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now  using the better, heavier 3"  brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us  near  2  1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes  relatively smaller bore  shotgun, 24ga,  with  458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

Offline hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2014, 10:26:49 AM »
Here is a different look at 585 sabots holding 458cal bullets.
Sabots hold leafd as well as jacketed.



Here is a long turned streamlined bullet in our 585.




Anyone wanting to import barrels, actions, cases, etc into Canada from
here can work through Prophet River Firearms in Lloydminster, AB.

The here being the US, as well as our group with barrels, dies, cases, 
and McGowen with .585 barrels  in stock, CH4D with 585HE dies
in stock, gunshops with # 31 shellholders.
And later few retail outlets setup with cases in stock... . Ed