Author Topic: AR10-06  (Read 18173 times)

Offline K2unit

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AR10-06
« on: August 29, 2007, 03:25:33 PM »
Here is what I proposes the Team of CNC Guns & Khalan Weaponry, design & fabricate for the next generation group build.  I think it would best be called an AR10-06 or better yet an AR06.  In short, itís an AR10 for a 30-06 caliber cartridge using  20rd. BAR magazines.

My Rational: 

I believe that most people who bought the AR45 receiver probably have already built an AR15 in 5.56 caliber and possibly two or even an AR in 9mm.  Making the AR45 at least a second or third AR rifle. What made the AR45 COOL was the relatively odd caliber and high capacity Grease Gun magsÖÖSomething Different!

I believe there are several nice rifles available in .308 already, from a dozen manufacturers; AR10, FAL, M14, HK91.  There is no point in building yet another AR10 in .308, as a finished Eagle Arms (Armalite) receiver can be bought for $180. What would be COOL is an AR10 in a different caliber with a high capacity magazine, like 30-06 in a BAR magÖÖSomething Different!

Advantages:

It turns out that BAR magazines are cheap at about $25.  It also turns out that surplus 30-06 ammo is currently cheaper than the barely available .308 ammo.  Most people believe 30-06 ballistics are better  than .308.  For me, the most interesting advantage is the capability of the BAR magazine to ALSO be used with the GIANT Winchester Magnum Caliber series in .300, .338, and my favorite .458!!!!!  Now these arenít cheap shots, so use the 30-06 ammo if thatís a factor.  It turns out that the Win Mag series is the same overall length as the 30-06 cartridges.  The AR06 receiver has the potential to allow other experimenters/gunsmiths to have the capability to develop and grow into these new rounds!  Think of an AR06 with a .458 Win Mag is to an AR15 with a .50 Beowulf.

The trick is going to be a design that allows the use of ALL the other AR10 components; Upper Receiver, Bolt assembly, Recoil assembly, Stock, etc.   I know SolidWorks so part of the job will be to draw up the other components; BAR mag, Upper Receiver, Bolt, etc. to see if it can even be designed. So if any body wants to help in that area, that could be useful.

Iíve included a few links for ROM costs for BAR mags including a mag that has already had the feed lips formed for a .338 Win mag just to show itís possible.

http://www.gunaccessories.com/Magazines/BAR/BAR.asp

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=78713992

Already formed for .338 Win Mag @ $45

http://www.jocoemprise.com/rifles/browning/browningbar.html

Also you see the picture Iíve posted of the relative sizes of the mags & cartridges. I need to figure out how many of each caliber Win Mags will fit in a 20rd. BAR mag. The BAR mag is about .28Ē longer and about .055Ē wider than the FAL mag (donít have an M14 mag).




Left to Right; 
FAL .308 Mag,    .308 cartridge,    30-06 cartridge,   .300 Win Mag (snap cap),   .338 Win Mag (not shown)   .458 Win Mag (snap cap),    BAR Mag

I would like your feed back about your interest in having Justin & Mitch pursue this concept and any other thoughts, which might move this idea forward!

Thanx K2
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 03:44:52 PM by K2unit »

Offline trwalsh

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2007, 04:05:45 PM »
I would certainly buy one of those.

You're absolutely correct about the AR45 being my 3rd or 4th AR style rifle. Like many other people, once I get used to a system, I like to stick with it as much as possible.

I really like the fact that these projects are using early/mid 20th century components such as the ammo calibers and magazines and giving them a new platform for them to work on very well for even more decades to come. I always liked 30-06 for hunting whitetail up north.

Count me in !!!   
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 04:31:45 PM by trwalsh »
Yes, I'd like an M240 please...no no, the other one, the belt fed!  Oh, and while I'm here, let me also get a big gulp, a powerball quick-pick, and a pack of Marlboro's, Thanks.

Offline Prototype Services

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2007, 05:35:23 PM »
You know COBB is making this already, or something similar. It is an AR platform using BAR mags in 30/06.
I don't think they are flying off the shelves.
But if Justin does it, I could be interested. ;D
What we need are various FAL receivers. There is a huge black hole to be filled.

Offline K2unit

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2007, 11:10:25 AM »
18 people have viewed this thread in 24 hours with 2 additional people committing interest.  Including myself that's a 16% interest level.  :D

I was not aware of the Cobb MRC300.  From an engineering perspective, thatís great news because it means at some level it can be built using AR10/15 components!  Looking at these links, I see the basic system is a modular system where the; Magazine Well; Trigger Group; Upper Receiver & Barrel assembly are interchangeable with the different calibers and corresponding magazines.  I canít tell if the (MRC300)  BAR Mag configuration also works with the AR10 upper, but the (MRC200) model does.  The fact that it works in both .300 Win Mag & .338 Lapua is also encouraging for our AR06, demonstrating the cartridge pressures and recoil forces are manageable in an AR10 configuration!

http://www.cobb50.com/mcr.htm

The reason that I see preventing them from flying off the shelf seems to be the $4067 MSRP costs and $2360 ďon saleĒ.

http://www.snipercountrypx.com/pc-3601-698-cobb-manufacturing-mcr300-rifle-30-06.aspx

 I was thinking that the AR06 receiver would come in around $300-$350.  Iíve seen AR10 uppers receivers & .308 barrels for around $300 without the bolt.  So with a custom caliber (30-06) barrel, Bolt assembly & stock assembly, Iíd guess weíre in the $1000 ballpark ÖÖÖa far lot less than a $4000 MSRP!

Additionally Cobb just posted that Bushmaster bought them out and they won't be producing anything for a while!

http://www.warrifles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46774

As far as the FAL receiversÖIíve built several FALís in the last two years. Most of the builds have been Imbelís from Gunbroker for $450-$500. Iíve waited a few months to received two DSA receivers @ $375 and bought a Century receiver at a gun show for $300.  Coonan, Ohio Rapid Fire, Enterprise occasionally also make or at least claim they will make receivers.  I personally have not found it difficult to find an FAL receiver when the urge to build happens.  I do believe that FAL parts kits are rapidly disappearing as well.   Not that I donít love FALís, again, itís yet another .308.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203479&highlight=FAL+Pistol

There are plans available for the FAL receiver to generate a Solidworks model.  I have seen 80% Century receivers on Gunbroker that sell for about $100.  I think because the receiver is steel rather than aluminum, that would make it much more difficult and time consuming (read expensive) for Justin & Mitch to CNC.  In the end itís up to Justin what he wants to take time to build. 

Iím sure there are several various receivers, people would like to see Justin make.  Iím just trying to identify something different and unusual that canít all ready be purchased and then get a consensus and hopefully about 20 SOLID commitments to buy and see what Justin has to say.

Anybody else on this forum interested?  Iím thinking about cross posting on AR15 & Gunco forums to see what the interest might be there.

Post what you think about the AR06 and the additional Win Mag caliber options and if youíll commit to a purchase.

Thanx K2
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 11:40:43 AM by K2unit »

Offline Tango Chaser

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2007, 06:29:03 PM »
I think any lower designed to use an existing mag is a good project. I like the idea of a 30-06 version using BAR mags. Make for a hell of a hunting gun with all the loads available for the -06. My dad suggested a 7mm-06 version as well.

I really like the idea of using old obsolete mags and parts in modern guns. It allows continued service of those parts and expands the platforms available for the shooter. Kinda like the AR45 and GG mags.

I'm working on a AR15 lower that takes WWII Reising SMG mags. Mags are freaking expensive but it will be unique. I alreay made a working prototype.

I also made a .45 GAP AR15 using a Thompson SMG barrel and Sten mags. Ran like a raped aped with it's ass on fire. I'd make more if the interest was there.

Offline The Law

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2007, 09:53:36 AM »
Whats the availability like for BAR mags?

I currently have a design for .308 receiver.  Originally it was designed to mate with an Armalite upper, but now I've changed the design for use with a DPMS upper.  Right now, I'm striving to get a design down to work with G3 mags since I pick them up for about $3 a piece.  I'm personally not fond of the .30-06, so if I were to go bigger, I'd much rather learn towards a magnum... say the .300 win mag. 

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.

Offline nm00ph

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2007, 04:43:36 AM »
Sweet, I was just looking for something like this today...  The MCR300 is nice, but 2.6k on sale is a big pill...

I originally started by looking at the RRA .308 that is supposed to take FAL mags, and then I went off on a tangent looking at Mausers.

AR06 or some type of AR that you could rechamber for 9.3x62mm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9.3_x_62)...  A round that puts out .338 Win mag power in a shell that's very similar to an '06 with '06 kick...


I know that the MCR300 says it can do that, but man... So, yeah, this sounds pretty interesting.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 05:33:24 AM by nm00ph »

Offline K2unit

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2007, 06:48:37 AM »
BAR magazines are still inexpensive presumably because there arenít many BARís around.    The cheapest Iíve found is:

What A Country:   http://www.whatacountry.com/

Used $9.95 or 10 Pcs @ $8.95             Part # WC-13A
Like New $14.95 or 10 Pcs @ $12.95   Part# WC-7


Or Gun Parts Corp.   Part #  34120  New   $14.95

http://www.e-gunparts.com/itemnumber.asp


9.3 x 62 Cartridge looks interesting!  Itís actually shorter than the 30-06 at 3.291Ē vs. 3.34.  Looks like rim diameter is almost interchangeable at .470 vs. .473 diameters.
I wonder how much they cost to buy and the availability vs. re-loading them. Very interesting!

So what do we need to do to get an AR06 to happen Justin? 

K2

Offline danedgington

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2007, 07:17:14 AM »
I want one (Or more).  There is the modular AR platform that has on 30-06 version, but if I recall the 30-06 was a limited production of about 250 total units.



Dan

Offline racingguy2

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2007, 09:57:41 AM »
I've got the classic A303 Springfield in .30-06, (rebarrelled and a sporter stock)and it's a great hunting rifle that I'd never give up, even if it weren't given to me by my grandfather. Ammunition is cheap and available everywhere. It's flawelessly reliable and amazingly accurate, even out to 500-600 yards, but I just test fired my .300 WSM AR, and I've got to say "I love it."

It's based on a stock DPMS LR308 reciever, with a Douglas match barrel chambered for the .300 WSM. Very few modifications were required to get this to cycle reliably. I opened up the ejection port a little bit, built an adjustable gas block (visions of the carrier slamming back so hard it split the stock inspired this change), and of course modified the bolt for the larger case. It uses the stock DPMS 20 round magazines, which will hold 18 of the WSM cartridges. I'm changing a few more parts, mostly for long term reliability, like remaking the barrel extension and bolt out of S7 tool steel, and a carrier out of titanium (coated with TiCN) to reduce the weight, but it ran through the 20 round box of test ammo with only minor adjustments to the gas block.

Overall, if you're looking for a economical, magnum trajectory, AR style rifle, I'd highly recommend the .300 WSM, or the off the shelf (from DPMS) .300 SAUM.

Offline Wingman33

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2008, 09:26:53 PM »
i think a target ar10 in 300mag would be best, considering that 30-06 is kindof oddball and reserved for things like 700 remingtons
the reson .308 is not available is because of the war
also 30-30 rounds in a AR10 would be nifty
the only problem is you start to compete with the mini14 and the socom m14's that are already using the larger rounds, and doing it with a gas piston. which is much cleaner in my opinion than direct gas impingment

Offline Munchies

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2008, 10:28:34 PM »
I am interested only because that would mean 8mm mauser could be used. Which means the 7.92x63 super surplus from marstar can be use.

98$/1000 rd

Offline Wingman33

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2008, 02:12:13 PM »
why not use a different weapon system?

Offline cornholio1

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2008, 12:06:34 PM »
What would it take to make a 300 winmag Ar style rifle?  Stretched lower/upper receiver, same barrel, new chamber, new bolt, new buffer, buffer spring.  Anything else?  Which mags would work with it?

Offline Wingman33

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2008, 03:22:38 PM »
currently only the walther wa2000 has a removeable box mag for 300mag

Offline rstimpfling

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2008, 11:11:34 AM »
ANy current interest in this project?  I am very interested in a 10% or at least drawings on this.

Offline goober

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2008, 11:21:14 AM »
I'm (still) interested. 'Course the cheap BAR mags linked earlier in the thread are no longer around but there are others (not quite as cheap tho  :P )
heatware username: goober

Offline ScottRS

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2008, 01:04:58 PM »
The extra cartridge length looks (to me) like it'd call for an entirely different firearm, not just a lower; if the round on the left is standard .308, the rest of them are longer enough to where you can't reasonably fit them into an AR10 upper and have it cycle, as the bolt doesn't have enough travel to accomodate much longer of a round than a .308.  I think you could make do with a standard (rifle) length AR10 receiver tube, if you put a short buffer in it, but I don't know if the AR10 operating spring could support the extra travel.

Now that I've played with the AR10 platform a bit, I'm tempted to make something bigger, but the next step (with any level of support) is into the Armalite AR30 (.338 Lapua) realm for which separate spare parts are not exactly advertised as readily available, let alone at a budget-minded price point.  My problem personally becomes, once you get bigger than the AR10, if you want an AR type configuration, you're into probably a one-off bolt, bolt carrier, etc., and that's beyond what I feel I'm qualified to build at my present level of experience.

Offline rstimpfling

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2008, 02:20:11 PM »
I have looked around.  There are several sources of BAR mags available.  I do agree that probably this would be an entire custom design including upper and bolt.  Anyone interested in undertaking this?

Offline miller4000

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Re: AR10-06
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2009, 05:03:51 PM »
you know I actually am determined to get my next AR rifle in 358 Winchester.. The recoil is a issue but this rifle hits like a sledge hammer! all the military should switch over to 358 Winchester ASAP